7-15 Bishop Spong -VS- Dr. Martin – Topic : Sexual Ethics
A debate between the controversial Episcopal Bishop of Newark, N.J., Rev. Spong, and Dr. Martin concerning. “Should the church condemn or condone homosexual and premarital sex?” Dr. Walter Martin, Dr. John Spong, Roger Montgomery Debate these Topics and More on the John Ankerberg Show. http://ankerberg.com/
This was Dr. Walter Martin’s Last Debate before his Death. 1989 (June 24) Debate with Bishop Spong on “The John Ankerberg Show,” the weekend prior to his death. 1989 (June 26) Walter R. Martin died peacefully at his home in San Juan Capistrano, California. He was 60 years old. Link to his Site Below
http://www.waltermartin.com/index.html
Wikepedia on Walter Martin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Martin
Duration : 0:9:4
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My respect for …
My respect for Bishop Spong is growing by the minute. Man, this was 1989! He was so ahead of his time! And he speaks so graciously, and with logic and conviction.
Now, I don’t agree …
Now, I don’t agree with Bishop Spong’s theology or views, but I think this “debate” is uncharitable. I’ve been seeing a lot of double-teaming going on against the bishop. I think that there needs to be a little charity exercised with Truth.
that is stupid. the …
that is stupid. the bible does not interpret itself. every interpretation, literalist reformed theology included, is a human interpretation made to fit one’s understanding. even theologians would concede that we do not understand everything in scripture, thus we’re only encountering scripture with our human understanding. to put it simply, claiming that you have an uninterpreted divine understanding, is in fact a human interpretation.
The story of Horus …
The story of Horus is in no way related to the story of Christ beyond the re
Horus was a fabricated symbol! He stood for primordial knowing. Egyptian priests did not believe in a literal Horus beyond the pharaoh.
There are similarities and the reasons for them are explained by a casual reading of Genesis 2 and 3.
Spong be the playa …
Spong be the playa man. He’s stylin’ and profilin’, takin’ all in his stride. He b up 4 tha gayz an tha evolutionists 2, word!. Nuttin’ b fazing he. Certified P!-I!-M!-P!.
It’s a gradual …
It’s a gradual process for many. The more scholarly, the less evangelical.
At least that’s what happened with Spong, Barker, Loftus, and many others.
It’s nice to still be able to say, “the truth will set you free.”
I’ll forgive your …
I’ll forgive your ethnocentricity. I realize its the Bible the speaking.
One sin shall not be forgiven. Not thinking for yourself.
All sinful desires …
All sinful desires are normal for falling man and science has confirmed it. Science confirms the Bible: Mark 7 says that sin is from within and that we are falling humans. Everyone has the capacity to be homosexual, or a liar, thief, covetous, adulterer, fornicator, to be wicked, etc. We need to be BORN AGAIN.
evangelical scholar …
evangelical scholar is an oxymoron!
what unchristian …
what unchristian behavior was that? Disagreeing with him? Standing up for what you believe in? I’m confused. You pagans must think that a Christian must be a doormat for the rest of you to walk all over or something. That’s NOT the Christ I know- at all. He was a man’s man.
there’s no such …
there’s no such thing as a former Christian. You just never were one. That’s all. The Holy Spirit NEVER dwelt in you. If He did you would still be one of God’s very own.
oh God another …
oh God another former christian. What happened to you did you have your faith tested a little bit or did you do “EXTENISVE” research and find that Egyptian Gods are the root of all Gods and Jesus? You new agers are somethin else.
I can say who is or …
I can say who is or who isn’t a christian because the bible says that those who preach according to this word are of God. This man “Bishop” Spong is incorporating man made doctrines into christianity and reguards the bible as something old and archaic which we have the power to interpret to fit our understanding. which is a lie straight from the pit of hell. You and other can interpret all you want if yopu want to follow your own lies then by all means do so. You’ll see where that lands you.
If you think you …
If you think you can say who is or who is not a “Christian” than you don’t understand how language works: how words both exist and evolve in society. Language IS relative to those who use it. Words change in meaning as their use changes in society. Words often have multiple meanings at same time. What you mean by “Christian” doesn’t get to mean what everyone means by it just because “The Bible tells [you] so.” And even in that, there are and will continue to be other interpretations. Face it.
If you think you …
If you think you can say who is or who is not a “Christian” than you don’t understand how language works: how words both exist and evolve in society. Language IS relative to those who use it. Words change in meaning as their use changes in society. Words often have multiple meanings at same time. What you mean by “Christian” doesn’t get to mean what everyone means by it just because “The Bible tells [you] so.” And even in that, there are and will continue to be other interpretations. Face it.
As a former …
As a former Christian its a little funny but mostly sad to see how literalist as those in this show so often data mine for opinions that agree with their worldview and try and present these as evidence they are right. Its getting old guys. Argue for your view. Stop quoting people that agree with you as if that proved anything.
I’m not speaking to all Christians necessarily but mostly Christian apologists. They do this “religiously.”
Behavior mode? This …
Behavior mode? This guy must be crazy! Sexual attraction is a biological reaction. Men don’t get erections by acts of will. It is something that just happens. You don’t choose what you are sexually attracted to. It is just crazy thinking that sexuality is a choice.
I know. It made me …
I know. It made me angry as well. They call themselves Christians and yet they displayed very unchristian behavior toward the Bishop who didn’t happen to agree with them.
The “truth” is not …
The “truth” is not always what it seems. So, when people speak of the “truth” in those verses…. I believe it’s a shade of the truth. I’ve previously had guilt, for those feelings and beliefs that I’ve had…. questioning all those apparent contradictions. Then Spong came along and gave me hope…. that I can simultaneously use rational thought and accept Jesus.
You see… this is …
You see… this is exactly the reason why a long time ago, I began to question how controlling the church can be and how arrogant long-standing, Christian beliefs truly are. If all the other religions of the world believe something else on how one can attain a place in heaven…. how do you know they’re wrong? Why can’t there be different pathways to heaven, especially when a person hasn’t been exposed to Christianity, but remained a great person in their religion?
No they don’t. Read …
No they don’t. Read John 3:16, Matthew 7:13, 1 Timothy 2:5 and John 14:6. All of them state emphatically that there is nothing that is going to get you to heaven but Jesus and to believe he died for your sins. Muslims think he is a prophet, Buddhist think hes an accended master, Jews don’t believe in him. We don’t condemn anybody. We preach the gospel if you want to listen and if you want to hear the good news come on in and well talk to ya. If not ok thats not a problem.
Did you believe in …
Did you believe in Santa Claus when you were little? I did. I later found out I was wrong. Just because there are millions of people believing in something, doesn’t mean that it is a fact. It’s a nice thought to believe that everything in the bible as the word of God. But because there are discrepancies in the bible, as proven by scholars.. takes away the 100% credibility that it is all the word of God. The problem is, people feel they are being going to if they think that. It’s too bad.
Nephillim…. I’m …
Nephillim…. I’m not a homosexual. I do have a question for you…. Do you believe a Muslim, Jew, or Buddhist can get into heaven? I believe they can…. and it’s the arrogant nature of fundamentalists who claim that one can only achieve that through Christianity. My point is… just because you have your belief, doesn’t necessarily make it so. And to condemn someone without being factually right, is the wrong thing to do.
christian. Studies …
christian. Studies show that homosexuality is a choice, show that it is a genetic deformity, show that it is a brain malfunction, they show its this, they show its that. They don’t prove anything. You fell into that lifestyle and you don’t want to come out of it because you after your own ways. God has said many times old and new testament that homosexuality is a sin, abominable, homosexuals will not enter into heaven, homosexuals are perverts and reprobates etc.
First of all …
First of all science can’t prove a thing. Science is constantly contradicting itself I don’t even see how it calls itself science. Secondly you are NOT a christian if you think the word of God is outdated. Thats the problem with people nowadays everythign is relative and dependent on how people think and feel. No its not.The word of God is and if you don’t want to accept it then thats you but do not besmirch the name of our lord or people who really walk his path by calling yourself a